A Conversation with Paul Berkelouw

Interview

I recently visited to Berkelouw’s Berrima Book Barn to interview Paul Berkelouw, the latest of six generations of Berkelouw book sellers.  We talked about rare books, who collects them; why they collect them; Paul’s profession as a book seller and the future of books and publishing.  I recorded our conversation and transcribed it for SOHI collectors to share.

RW I want to ask you about antique books and why people collect them because I’ve noticed that some of them aren’t very expensive, not really any more expensive than a new book.

PB There are certain items that are collectible and certain items that are not. With books you have particular editions on particular subjects by particular authors, particular publishing houses or publishing dates or whatever it may be that has become sought after and then you’ve got collectors who focus on those particular areas and they sort of develop collections and look at buying things for investment and it’s all determined by condition.  A lot have to be determined by condition and the rarer the item the greater the demand.

RW You’ve got a lot of stuff in the catalogue for say, $60, that wouldn’t be any more expensive than a new book.

PB Some of these books are not  rare. There’s a lot of stock here that we catalogue purely because that’s our specialty.  Books covering Australia, the South Pacific, and exploration  are the areas that we specialise in.  (Editor’s Note: Our co-editor Sarah King is a regular rifler through the collectible and rare art catalogue section.  It’s a heavenly source of graphic inspiration to her)

RW Is it mainly academics or is it all sorts of people that collect?

PB No, not necessarily academics at all actually.  We used to sell a lot more books to academics. The pure academic buying books for research is not really a customer any more.  The Internet has dissolved that demand.  You’re looking more at people who are “baby boomers”, those who have a disposable income.

RW Have they gone up in value during the recession, older books?  Or have they just held their value?  Have you noticed any difference since the GFC hit?

PB Generally, book selling hasn’t been impacted too dramatically by the economic downturn.  I do think the top end of the market has been effected.  It’s quite challenging to sell a book for  $5,000 or $10,000 in this economic flux.

RW I would have thought that they’d go up in value.  Gold has gone up in value astronomically.

PB I don’t think they’ve gone down in value but I think people with spending money may invest in other ways.

RW So it’s more like a luxury than anything?

PB Yes, absolutely.  The discretion has been at the top end of the market:  When you buy a book for your child you’re going to buy it regardless of your financial circumstances.  If you’re going to buy a book for 20 dollars or a cookbook for 30 dollars then you do that at the end of the day no matter what.  But if you’re going to invest in a book for 10 grand you will think:  I could probably do without that.

RW I just wanted to ask you as well, when you were a kid and you were kind of getting to an age where you were deciding what you wanted to do, was this your only option that you were allowed within your family?

PB It’s interesting because I have two brothers and we all work together, the three of us, which in itself is pretty unusual today.  But I think like all family businesses you grow up in an environment where the business is very much central to your family. The conversation when I was a child often rotated around the business.

RW Book selling.

PB Book selling and whatever else was happening in the business.  There was a certain expectation.  I am the eldest son and I think  there were not too many options realistically available for me.  At that age you’re impressionable, and it was a great opportunity – deciding to come and work with your dad, working in your own business.

RW Yeah. So there’s great family history too.

PB Unique family history.  In your early 20s it was probably a reasonably dull type of business to be in compared to a lot of businesses – I think it’s only when you mature that you appreciate it more.  Dad (Leo) was based here in the Southern Highlands.  He moved the business  here in the mid 1970s, from Sydney. We (myself, Robert & David) were later (1994) given the opportunity of starting a book store back in Sydney again, which was our first , there in Oxford Street, Paddington.

RW That’s pretty exciting.

PB It was very exciting.

RW There’s a lot going on there.

PB Oxford Street was a lot more interesting then than it is now.

RW They’ve cleaned it up now and gentrified it?

PB It was more of an interesting place.  It was active; it was a  creative environment.  The gay culture was much more visible than it is today.

RW Did you like going in there?

PB I used to be in that store on a daily basis.  I’m not there as much any more.  I think it’s a fantastic store.  It has great ambiance.

RW Really well known too.  I just went up to the main shop and I just noticed that you have a lot of kind of community driven stuff going on down here.  Do you have that stuff in Sydney or not so much, like kids’ reading and the local authors section?

PB We have kids’ readings in many of the stores.  For us to be successful booksellers we need to be community orientated.  That’s an essential aspect that we try and pursue with our managers of the various stores.  Our manager in the Bookbarn is developing the Young Writers’ Festival.  We’re sponsoring this event with some big prize money.  We have applicants from all over the country.

RW Is it only open to Australian writers?

PB Yes.  The 9 to 12 year olds and 12 to 15 year olds, they’re the two categories.  I think we’re putting up $1,000 for first prize.  It’s exciting and amazing what some of these kids are writing. Some well-recognized authors are participating.

RW Do you think the community events kind of speak more to the market in the country areas or in the city?

PB I think it depends on the demographic.  Community events certainly work in the country areas.  The children’s readings that are run in our new store in Balgowlah, and in our Mona Vale store work well,  but I don’t know if they work as much in Paddington.  In the outer suburbs or away from the CBD people are more community orientated but in Paddington it’s a more…

RW More transient population?

PB Yes. The ones that are passing through; the lifestyle of city people make them less inclined.

RW Yeah, I know what you mean.  I think they’re busy too.  They’re just trying to get to work and live and dropping kids off at child care and getting back again and they don’t really have as much time for sort of Friday mornings sitting down with the kids for a couple of hours reading books at the local store.

PB Exactly.

RW What’s planned for Berkelouws like for the future?  It sounds like you’re expanding.

PB We have been expanding.  We’ve started our tenth store and we’re just about to open another down here in Bowral.  We’re going to open up an outlet/warehouse store – books and café.  We are looking at introducing  the wine and dine experience as well within the Bowral outlet. Our business is sound and strong but we are aware of the impact that changing technology will have on us.

RW That’s what I was going to ask you actually, what do you think is going to happen there.  I mean, they’re talking about having books that you read from a tablet that feel like a book so you can take it to bed with you in the morning and even read the paper on a (digital) tablet.  Are there plans to move with that or to sort of specialise and say: no, we sell the hard copy experience?

PB Well, true, this technology has just been released in America in the last six or 12 months and it’s only a matter of time till it  comes here.  From what I understand people have taken to it.  We can’t stick our head in the sand.  It’s going to happen, in some capacity.  The question is to what extent.  Well look at a CD in the music business.  That change happened very quickly – CDs to iPods happened within years.  There was a dramatic movement across but then the CD business maintained itself and some of the CD mainstream businesses have gone but there is a boutique niche market.

RW And vinyl’s growing.

PB And vinyl’s growing.

RW Vinyl is constantly growing.  People do have that emotional thing about books and records whereas a CD is just like a piece of plastic.

PB Yes, like a book, there’s a big difference to the look and feel, (a tablet is) just a computer.

RW And it doesn’t have a nice smell or anything either.

PB I think that books will be around for a long time.  Technology does impact on us.  We have to be aware of it: we have to move with the times, we might have to diversify some of our thinking. It may be only a certain area within bookselling that’s going to be impacted.  Fiction and crime fiction are obvious areas but art, children’s books, gardening, cooking.  You can’t use a cookbook on CD.
RW Yeah, and you can’t put it on the counter top while you cook.

PB No, I’m not going to do all that.  You want pictures, you want the whole – you want a nice book for your coffee table.  You’re always going to buy your children a book to read in bed.

RW Yes, exactly.

PB I think there’s a long time before you sit down with a computer in bed with your kids.

RW What about self publishing?  The whole problem with the music industry too for the record labels was self publishing, that people started selling all all their music  direct to the fans or just putting it online for free.  Do you think that’s a danger with book publishers that with this technology anyone can be an author, anyone can publish.

PB Absolutely.  It’s going to be years.  That’s going to be years.  Copyright issues have to be resolved.  I don’t know exactly where it will end up. With books, if an author allows their books to become digitalised, then how do they control their revenue stream?  I don’t know.  Once you digitalise it’s basically everywhere.

RW True, true, so there’s no other way to make money out of them.

PB The only revenue stream is people buying your book, unless you’re JK Rowling and make a million.

RW You can look at it as a new revenue stream.

PB Yes.  We have no choice.  My natural reaction is that we would probably be best without it, but it’s here.  Google,  Sony and others producing it, are going to produce all these bits of equipment.  That’s reality.  So we’ve just got to do something different.

RW So you’ve already got your niche.

PB Yes.  We’re very much a niche operator and regarded as that.

RW So next generation, are your kids looking forward to stepping into the role?

PB I wouldn’t know at this stage.  Our eldest child is six, so I don’t know.  The circumstances have worked out for us, the three of us involved in the business.  The three of us get on very well.  We’re very lucky.  Family businesses can be fantastic but challenging.  I think it’s going to be quite challenging for the next generation.  I don’t know if I would be an advocate of pushing my children into a structure where… it’s all right for us because we’re from the same family but our offspring – there’s going to be three families.  Working for your cousins is slightly different to working with your brothers or sisters.  I don’t know what the future holds in that respect but we don’t have to worry about that yet.  We’ll start thinking about it in 20 years.

RW Yes, you’ve got plenty of time.

PB Get through our careers first.

RW It’ll be a completely different ball game.

PB Bookselling will be a totally different business by then and who knows where it’ll be.

Interview:  Rebecca Wolkenstein